SEO for Account-Based Podcasting

Ryan Brock: If you say AI, I am going to shut this show right now.

Dots Oyebolu: Well, AI will play a little part.

Ryan Brock: Thanks for joining us on Page One Or Bust Podcast.

Speaker 4: Welcome to Page One Or Bust, your ultimate guide to getting on page one of search engines in a competitive landscape, where it's crucial to stand out. More B2B marketers are turning to podcasting to connect with their target audience. So, in this episode we're talking about best SEO practices for business podcasting. Our guest today is Dots Oyebolu, enterprise growth strategist at Content Allies, and the founder and host of the Marketing Leadership Podcast. You'll hear Dots advice for formulating a strategy, maximizing analytical insights and effective promotional tactics. But first, here's a brief word from our sponsor. Page One Or Bust is brought to you by DemandJump, get insights, drive outcomes with DemandJump. Get started creating content that ranks for free at demandjump. com today. And now, here are your co- hosts, Drew Detzler and Ryan Brock.

Drew Detzler : Welcome back to Page One Or Bust. This is your host, Drew Detzler. As always, I'm joined by my co- host, Ryan Brock. Ryan.

Ryan Brock: Yo, what's up?

Drew Detzler : Not much. Looking forward to today's conversation. We have a special guest, Dots Oyebolu, who is the strategy director at Content Allies. Dots, how are we doing?

Dots Oyebolu: I'm good. I'm really, really excited to be on your podcast. And yeah, can't wait to get into it.

Drew Detzler : Yeah, so let's jump into it. So, Dots, go ahead and tell me a little bit about how SEO first came on your radar.

Dots Oyebolu: Yeah, absolutely. I think I started marketing in general 13 years ago. And then, maybe a little bit before that, I came across this guy called inaudible. I don't think he's very popular nowadays, but back in the day was one of those guys that started what I call the information marketing age, thought leadership, selling courses, and things like that. He really honed on SEO and lend all the basics. And then, as I continued to apply this through my work, I also picked this up again around 2012, 2013, with those whom I would call the digital marketing baby boomers, Robert Rose, Amy Potter Field, or folks like Robert Rose, and another guy Joe Poluski, they had this content strategy system and they had some books written about this, in terms of killer marketing. So if you're listening, you should get that book. But my issue will not be complete without one of the two goals of SEO themselves, Rand Fishkin, formerly of Moz, credible insights sharing during that time. And also, Neil Patel, who still does a lot of great SEO work today. Those guys were guides, in terms of how I've practicalized SEO, and I used it in my businesses, and I know this response is a little bit speaking about the people that inspired me, but I am a self- taught digital marketer. So, no school, nothing. I just listened, or watched these guys, and read articles, and watched YouTube. I watched more YouTube than classroom text in my life.

Drew Detzler : So many digital marketers are self- taught, I feel like. So, you're with the masses there.

Dots Oyebolu: Exactly.

Ryan Brock: Yeah, we've been talking about, it's a common theme on this show that most people I know who are in marketing, and especially those who are doing really remarkable things, found their way into it accidentally. I'm one of them. It's a place where if you're creative or analytical, either one, you can experiment and try new things, and do new stuff, and I think that's really attracted to a lot of people.

Drew Detzler : All right, let's get into a little bit of your expertise and your current focus. And that's around SEO when it comes to podcasting. I'm interested to have our conversation today about the similarities between written content SEO, and podcasting SEO, and how the different platforms behave. But, one thing that you hit on is, account- based podcasting. Tell me a little bit about what that means.

Ryan Brock: What does that mean?

Dots Oyebolu: You all know what account- based marketing is. Account- based marketing is basically finding creative marketing ideas to target accounts. Yeah, they could be individuals, but they are entities, and that could be brands or what have you. So, basically, account- based podcasting is replacing that content marketing idea or that marketing idea with a podcast. Why has it become a thing? Why don't we have something like account- based social posting, or account- based email marketing? That's because podcasting campaigns themselves are not just channels, but they are verticals. There is a lot that goes on into the production, promotion, and the strategic aspects of podcasting, where you're using it for thought leadership, or in this case, account- based goals. And, you're turning the podcast into a revenue engine. And in the process, you're also getting some, what I call, the alternate SEO juice, if you like. Just like you said, there is the written content, there is the video content. If you consider YouTube as the second- biggest search engine. But there is also the alternate content, like audio, smart speakers, and some of these other things. And this is where podcasting comes in. The reason why I am particularly excited about it, is that, everybody's busy nowadays. And, I don't know any of you have the fortitude to read a 1, 500 word article, except if your life depends on it. But, you can do a lot of things using smart speakers to access info, or in this case, podcasts. It's creating a lot of demand generation appetite. So, it's rising to be a very effective content to both on the B2B and the B2C side of things.

Ryan Brock: We do some work with a company that's local to Indianapolis, called Casted. And we're big fans of them, because they're thinking about it the same way you're talking about it, where you can make something and put it out there and hope that it attracts attention, and we all know that's a big waste of time. Or, you could take what you're doing with a podcast, and you can learn about who's engaging with it, and what you could be doing to follow up with those specific people, or how to really build funnels around your podcast content, which is something that for a podcasts are, admittedly, very ignorant of. I don't know a lot about this. So, I'm interested to hear more about what you're doing, Dots, to help companies better target their podcast efforts, because I think a lot of people assume if a brand has podcast, somebody's just shouting into the void. But, not all brands are doing it that way. Some are doing it better, I would assume. So, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and your perspectives on that.

Dots Oyebolu: Yeah, absolutely. And I can represent this question in, how is account- based podcasting different from the traditional podcasting we know, right? Like a Joe Rogan for example. With account- based podcasting, there is always a commercial element to it. You must ask yourself, " Are those guests potential clients?" Because that way, it's easier to get a lead or a prospect to come speak to you about a particular topic, because it helps their ego, rather than just sending some code email.

Ryan Brock: By the way, Dots, are you interested in purchasing some marketing software?

Dots Oyebolu: Of course.

Ryan Brock: Kidding, obviously.

Dots Oyebolu: No, no, no. We use a lot of tools all the time. And by the way, we also use Casted, very amazing B2B.

Ryan Brock: Oh, very cool.

Dots Oyebolu: I'm proud of what they do, when it comes to the B2B side. That differentiation is not really there, and we have folks like this who are really doing great work in separating B2B from B2C. And, having all these individual ecosystems, if you like.

Drew Detzler : Yeah, and one of the cool things about having that data and who's listening to your podcast is, you realize what type of companies are listening to which type of discussions, and that can help inform future discussions, and future targeting, and future account- based marketing and podcasting. So, what are some of those strategies to optimize for podcast SEO?

Dots Oyebolu: Yeah, absolutely. So, let's look at this two ways. Let's look at the, I would call it, on podcast optimization and then look at what I would call the backlinking side. I'll start with the backlinking side, because it's probably not as detailed. To me, I think, account- based podcasting is killing two birds with one stone. The first bird is there potential clients. But what's also great with account- based podcasting is the organic traffic that comes with it, or the traffic in general that comes with it. But we will stick with organic traffic from a backlinking perspective, because you have that guest who is a prospect, or what if that guest is also a thought leader in that topic. That means, by working with that person, you're able to get the referral traffic in some way. We've been working on a project where I am the podcast host. I will write an article for you to post as a guest on your own website with a back link to our own website. Very easy, because there's already the podcast episode as an engagement. And then, we have the post that you have an article written about that topic with a link back to the brand. The second bit really is the on podcast optimization that I spoke about. And, I think the first thing, from my experience, not just my podcast, but working with other podcasts is looking at your niche. I know the law of cynical thought leaders. I don't know if you've seen them before, that they will tell you something is not working when everybody says something is working. I get it. Everybody wants a model that is attributed to their name. But what I would say, to be honest, is that, looking at your niche still works, even though some people might be saying the opposite. I think, it's important to look at what you're good at, where you can provide more value. Don't go too thin, but don't be too broad as well, right? We've got this podcast for example. You guys are talking about organic traffic, organic SEO, and some of those other initiatives around it. You have a niche. You are focusing on that. Once you get that out of the way, then you want to have a keyword strategy, just like the text content or every other content out there or Google, where you need to make a keyword strategy. It's also important to do that for a podcast as well. And you can do that from how Google sees podcasts, and from how platforms like Apple and Spotify see podcasts. And then, once you do that, then you can start the optimization. But what I've seen people do, in terms of the mistake is that, they do all the optimization because it's a lot of work, right? They do all the optimization at the beginning of the podcast. And once the podcast is live, they don't follow up, they forget about it. No. You want to stay as close to your podcast as possible, and then as close to your episode as possible. So, with each episode that comes out, make sure it's connecting to your theme, make sure it's connecting to the topic, make sure it's a topic that is already searchable, and with that the engines can always pick that up, and rank altogether.

Ryan Brock: One of the things I'm really interested in, about what you're talking about is, using podcasts as an optimization tool, as another signal to Google, and even as a backlink attractor. But something that I think is going to be increasingly important that is hiding in what you're talking about there, but I want to bring it to the forefront is the extra E in eat. Now, we have this expertise level, and I think that even if you set aside the additional traffic, a backlink from a thought leader might send you, if you have them on your podcast, the authority of that person's expertise, which is now present in your content, is probably more valuable than we even realized at this point. I think, it's going to continue becoming more valuable. And I think that extends to anything that you do in your written content that you want this webpage to rank well for Google. Well, if you're doing it right, for us, doing it right means, using this pillar- based marketing methodology steps like looking at the data the way that we look at it. But if you can have people on a podcast that speak to the things that you're talking about, the questions that you're answering in your written content, and you can throw a podcast clip in there, or you could even just quote that person directly, these are things that Google's getting sophisticated enough to actually understand, and to somewhat quantify, in terms of understanding whether or not you deserve to be the right answer on that topic. And so, yeah, the potential there is huge. And I think, our listeners need to think about that as well. Where can they find opportunities in anything they're writing, even if it's just like your basic SEO blog to bring in expertise that maybe wasn't there previously? Because without it, it's going to be really hard to stand out, moving forward, I think.

Dots Oyebolu: Yeah. And I think one good thing about expertise, you mentioned cluster content there, or pillar content is, I spoke to a podcast owner in the UK. And, they have a service where they can convert your podcast into a book. And what he said was that the ability for you to create clusters in retrospect or even proactively, would help in making that concept real. But, what came to mind is the power of creating clusters out of your content, which is what will be reflected in your keyword strategy, right? In your keyword strategy, you have the main angles, the main topic, the main lines, and then you have the sub topics, and so on and so forth. And then, you make sure that, as much as possible, every content follows that ecosystem, and you can always use it in any way that works to drive traffic.

Drew Detzler : Speaking our language, Dots. You're speaking our language. I love how we can get a podcast channel campaigns to fit within the pillar- based marketing methodology. It's beautiful.

Ryan Brock: Oh, you know what I would love to talk about? Is the meta stuff, because we've been talking about the podcast itself, Dots, and this is a very specific question, but what should I be doing with my landing pages for my podcast with my show descriptions to make sure that these things are being found?

Dots Oyebolu: Well, yeah, that's a very good question. And if you're listening, it's not Meta the company, metadata for SEO.

Ryan Brock: Thanks for that. Yeah, Zuck does not deserve any credit for it.

Dots Oyebolu: Exactly. And, this will be in relation to the podcasting platforms. When it comes to accountable podcasting, or just ranking your podcast organically, I personally would like to first prioritize for the podcast platforms first, and then Google would always work out, because they often mirror similar strategy. We do use a tool, and everyone should use that tool if you're listening, called Voxalyze, V- O- X- A- L- Y- Z- E. They have a model called the podcast visibility optimization stack. So, they have a couple of levels when it comes to that. They've got the white card and the black card. I'm not here for black. I'm here for white. And, the basics is still there. Podcast SEO is still very ancient right now, if I would use that word. So, you want to look at your show name. You want to test whether using your brand or the person might help, in terms of whether it's the artist, or the podcast owner is. In fact, we've seen that by just adding SEO keywords within your show name, you rank almost immediately. You start to rank immediately. That's how it works right now. So, what I mean by show name is this, you have the name that is on your podcast stacks, that cannot be changed. But, on the title of your podcast, the text side of it, you can create a slash or a column, and then make a phrase that incorporates your keyword. So, for example, in the case of this podcast, you can have an SEO, I would call it sometimes slogan, that says, Speaking to leaders in organic SEO, backlinking, and whatever you want to rank for. It can't be too long, because obviously, you have a character limit in there. And, show name has been one of the biggest when it comes to those show assets. But also, the description. You need to have a well- written description, not too much, not too small, where you must have some of those keywords within there. And then, at the episode level, like I said before, you want to optimize all your episodes titles, because there will be a reflection of your keyword strategy and the episode description. Now, that is the metadata side of it. But, I will also consider some of these other items metadata, your ratings and reviews. Just recently, I looked at the podcast that I was managing, about 182 episodes and just two reviews. I was shocked, because I mean, I don't know what the benchmarks are in terms of episodes to reviews. But, I'm not expecting two reviews for 182 episodes. That's because reviews sometimes don't come themselves. We are all busy, like I said. I don't review your podcast, it doesn't mean I don't listen, or enjoy it. So it's important for you to come up with some campaign to get listeners to rate and review your podcast. Spotify just released their own board. Apple has always been the one having reviews with podcasts. And then, now, we have the YouTube podcast platform. So, that's also very important. There are a few other, I guess, UX things that could help you, in terms of that visibility stack. So, your cover art is very important. For example, you don't want to use a cover art that is too dark, because most people are using Spotify in dark mode. So, it might get lost a little bit in there. So, you want to balance that as well. Your episode length is very important. That affects a KPI called consumption rates. If your episode length is too long... I mean, I'm guilty of this, I'm always trying to contain myself. Sometimes you feel you like the episode, so people will stay. Well, when you are starting, that's not always the case. So, you want to keep your episode length between 25 and 30 minutes, because that's the average time for commuting to work, or back from work. And, that just looks like a great benchmark. With that said, you want to add some of the other things, supporting with social, and stuff like that, and newsletters, and stuff like that. So, I mean, I could go on, and on. But, when it comes to just having your house in order, if you're able to follow this stack, that would really, really help drive your podcast higher.

Ryan Brock: All right, let's get some free advice, Drew.

Drew Detzler : Yeah.

Ryan Brock: We've got 32 episodes, maybe 33 episodes on this podcast. We've got 19 reviews on Apple. I don't know about Spotify, but what does that ratio look like to you? Are we a slack in here?

Dots Oyebolu: You are not. What? That's getting close to one- to- one, right? Okay, let's conservatively, maybe two to one. I don't think that's accurate. But, that is awesome. If you compare that to 182 with two reviews, that's 91 to 1. So, you guys are doing awesome. Whatever you're doing, just continue to do it. I'll probably see you in camera, so that I can get some tips.

Ryan Brock: There you go. And I should say that, it's five stars across all 19 ratings.

Dots Oyebolu: Oh, awesome. I mean, in all seriousness, it could be a mix, it could be a 4. 5, it doesn't matter. But I think the problem is that people don't even pay attention to reviews at all. And the fact that you guys have that average, I think, that... Man, if you can achieve 2 to 1, you are at the cream of the crop.

Drew Detzler : That's great.

Ryan Brock: Well, good to know.

Drew Detzler : I love it. It's because we have guests like you on, Dots.

Dots Oyebolu: Absolutely. Thank you.

Drew Detzler : I love it. All right, Ryan, before we wrap up, anywhere else you wanted to go on the SEO front?

Ryan Brock: Yeah. So, I would like to dive a little deeper. So, my question that I asked was mostly in jest, and mostly as an opportunity for me to show how great and well reviewed our show is. But, actually, at the same time, I don't know if 19 reviews is good for 32 episodes. That's something that I just didn't know. And so, that has got my mind turning on how little I know about metrics, especially for a B2B podcast like ours. I mean, we're sponsored by DemandJump. We're out here preaching the pillar- based marketing thing. So, maybe we can wrap up here by talking a little bit about for a B2B podcast, like ours, and I think a lot of our customers would be interested in, and maybe even running themselves, customers, I mean, listeners. What does success look like if we're doing things right, from an SEO perspective, or even from just a listenership perspective, what should we be shooting for? What are the metrics you care about Dots, versus what we might hear at other places?

Dots Oyebolu: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for mentioning that. In terms of metrics, you want to use a tool that captures as much metrics as possible, depending on where you are dealing with. So, once you get that out of the way, you want to look at a few metrics. Personally, for me, consumption rate is very important. And, your consumption rate should not be less than 50%. I mean, it's not crazy if it's not. But, you want to be up above 50% when it comes to your consumption rate. The amount of the average episode consumed during that time, and we have seen through various tests, that the podcast episode time is a key part of this. Anything beyond 30 minutes, it doesn't really work out. So, I had to get into reading books on speaking concisely, and being a better host, just to make sure that works out. With that said, there are a couple of other KPIs that we look at. We just spoke about the companies listening. If you're in the B2B space, that really, really helps out on that regard. And there's also the podcast visibility score. It's just like the domain ranking on Ahrefs or Semrush. Everybody's using it distance. But I think, Rand Fishkin came up with it, with Moz, same 1 over 100. And, you basically want to go beyond the average of 50, where you're starting with your first episodes, sometimes it's 30 something, 20 something, it's climbing, it's climbing. And then, when you start to do very well, you start to cross the 50 line. But where you're cream of the crop, then your podcast is 80 over 100, or 70 something over 100, 75 to 80 over 100. And, what visibility score means is, what are the combination of keywords that are ranking for your podcast, and how well are they ranking at the top, as high as they can get to? Right? So, the last KPI I will look at is the size of your listenership. And I'm saying that in relation to the number of downloads that you get. If you have listeners listening to more than one episode, that's where you want to be. One- to- one is great, or it's not the best. You want more downloads than listeners, because that shows that people are listening, they're stuck to you, they're listening to more than one episode on your podcast. And yeah, I know there are many other ROI metrics out there. But, if you're able to get this right, you might be able to generate enough demand for your brand to convert at the end of it.

Ryan Brock: And that's what it's all about, isn't it?

Dots Oyebolu: Yeah.

Drew Detzler : Yep, exactly. I love it. Great stuff, Dots. This is a great conversation. Before we let you go, we're going to hit what we call our lightning round. I'm going to ask you three questions. And, first answer that comes to mind. Sound good?

Dots Oyebolu: Yeah. Good.

Drew Detzler : All right, let's do it.

Dots Oyebolu: It reminds me of the lightning round at CMBC.

Drew Detzler : Yeah, exactly.

Dots Oyebolu: Dean Kremer.

Drew Detzler : There we go.

Dots Oyebolu: Okay.

Ryan Brock: Yeah, but we came up with it. They copied us.

Drew Detzler : Robbed us. Robbed us.

Ryan Brock: Furious about that still.

Dots Oyebolu: Please don't be.

Drew Detzler : What was the last thing that you searched for?

Dots Oyebolu: Geez, that's a very good question. I searched for Shopify stock, because I trade stock.

Drew Detzler : Okay.

Dots Oyebolu: So, yeah.

Drew Detzler : All right. So, Dots, are there any marketing or SEO myths that you've busted during your career?

Dots Oyebolu: That is a good question. Yeah. I wouldn't say I invented it. I think Marketo did. But, I really adopted the way people determined marketing budget as a function of lifetime value and cost per acquisition. A lot of people say these days, but it's been around for a very long time, where determining budget is a function of your lifetime value, and between 8 to 10% of that is your cost per acquisition. So, I think, out of those many things, there's also sales enablement, which I have been a champion for personally.

Drew Detzler : Great. And last question, Dots. What is your best prediction for SEO this year and beyond?

Dots Oyebolu: You probably know this Drew and Ryan.

Ryan Brock: If you say AI, I am going to shut this show right now.

Dots Oyebolu: Well, I mean, AI will play a little part in it.

Ryan Brock: Thanks for joining us on Page One Or Bust Podcast.

Dots Oyebolu: It's going to play a little part. Let's give it dimension. I'm not a newsjack guy myself, but transcription tools like Otter, and I've forgotten the name now... But, Otter is very common.

Ryan Brock: Yeah, we use that.

Dots Oyebolu: For transcriptions, and helps you to repurpose content, but that's not it actually. What it is, is if you're not in the podcast space right now, I think you should get into it, because SEO for podcasting is going to become way sophisticated. What was happening 20 years ago on the web is what is happening now, whereby, all you need to do is update your title and your ranking. That is not going to happen five years from now, if podcasts will continue to be a thing. I think it's going to be... So, you want to get on having a podcast as a thought leadership engine for your brand, whether it's a personal brand, or corporate, or enterprise, and make sure you optimize that for SEO. Think of it as you're in a party, and there are limited slots available. Get your seats first, so that you can kick others out if you want.

Drew Detzler : I love that. Get your seat on the hill and let it grow beneath you. I completely agree. And, I love it, Dots. Great conversation. Once again, thanks for joining us, Dots. Hope you have a good one.

Dots Oyebolu: My pleasure. This is exciting. Thank you.

Ryan Brock: I thought we already ended the show. Are we ending it? I thought it was already over.

Drew Detzler : All right. Well-

Dots Oyebolu: You guys are awesome.

Drew Detzler : ...Well, we're officially ending it now.

Ryan Brock: No, seriously, thanks Dots. Yeah, thanks for joining us. So appreciate your time here and your perspective.

Dots Oyebolu: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.

Drew Detzler : That's it for this episode of Page One Or Bust. See you next time.

Speaker 4: Are you ready to dive even deeper into pillar- based marketing? Here's your chance. The brand new book, Pillar- Based Marketing: A Data- Driven Methodology for SEO and Content That Actually Works, by co- host Ryan Brock and Christopher Day, is now available in paperback, hardcover, and ebook editions. Find it at Amazon, or Barnes& Noble, or look for the link in the show notes.