How to Create a Holistic Content Strategy with Amplified Marketing

Speaker 1: Welcome to Page One or Bust. Your ultimate guide to getting on page one of search engines. This interview features a true marketing powerhouse, Lindsay Tjepkema. As the CEO and co- founder of Casted, Lindsay has been at the forefront of a marketing revolution. With her company's innovative product and groundbreaking new category, amplified marketing. She's been empowering marketers to tap into their creativity and forge deeper connections with their audiences while still achieving and measuring real business impact. In this episode, we will dive deep into the world of amplified marketing with Lindsay and explore the cutting edge strategies and techniques that are shaping the future. But before we get into it, here's a brief word from our sponsor. Page One or Bust is brought to you by DemandJump, get insights, drive outcomes with DemandJump, get started creating content that ranks for free at demandjump. com today. And now, here are your co- hosts, Drew Detzler and Ryan Brock.

Drew Detzler: Welcome to Page One or Bust. This is your host, Drew Detzler. As always, I am joined by my co- host, Ryan Brock. Ryan, how's it going?

Ryan Brock: Oh, it's so good today. It's cold, it's rainy. I'm still depressed because it was warm yesterday, but whenever you're listening to this, I don't know. I don't know where you are. I don't know what the temperature is, so join me in my misery, won't you?

Drew Detzler: Yeah, check local listings.

Ryan Brock: Yeah.

Drew Detzler: All right, well, we'll cheer you up because joining us today is Lindsay Tjepkema, the CEO and co- founder of Casted. Lindsay, welcome.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Thank you. It's good to be here.

Ryan Brock: Lindsay, it's very intimidating having you on this show. We've been doing this for a while now, but I've never had this CEO of a podcast tech company and just a pure professional podcaster be on this show. So now I'm just thinking about every word that's coming out of my mouth and I'm hating it.

Lindsay Tjepkema: No, it just doesn't get much more meta than this, right? See, what we need to do is talk about meta being meta on a podcast about podcasts, and that would just break the internet, so.

Ryan Brock: Yeah, that's too much for my brain. Do you feel like the position you're in, or the company you're at, you get asked to be on a disproportionately high number of podcasts?

Lindsay Tjepkema: Probably. Yeah, which is fun. I love it. This is the best.

Ryan Brock: That's my next question.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Yeah, I don't think you start a podcast company if you're not a super big fan of being on and interviewing people on podcasts and listening to podcasts. So yeah, this is great.

Ryan Brock: I love it.

Drew Detzler: Awesome. Everything Ryan said. I am more nervous for this episode than I have been for any other because of your expertise, but-

Lindsay Tjepkema: Oh, no.

Drew Detzler: We won't let it show. We won't let it show. So let's take a look here. Lindsay, before we dive in, why don't you tell the listeners a little bit about Casted and how it came to be?

Lindsay Tjepkema: Sure. Well, my background is in marketing, so I spent 15 years as a B2B marketer, specifically in brand and content in B2B, always B2B. And in my last role, I was the VP of brand and content at a large global SaaS company. And as part of that, as a fan of podcasts, as we just mentioned, I was like, you know what? We need to do a show. This was 2016 going into 2017. And so we started a podcast, an audio- only podcast, also did a video series where we interviewed a bunch of industry leaders and it was great. It was super fun, of course, as we all know. But I was really disappointed that I had no way to really measure the things that I expected I could measure as a B2B marketer, like who's consuming my content, how are they consuming my content? What's it doing for the business? How is it contributing to sales? And it was really, really difficult to use that content in any other way. The podcast was the podcast, that's it. And unless I went back to an audio engineer and said, Hey, can you make me a clip of this specific timestamp window? It was what it was. It was just kind of locked up in this box. And so faced with that reality and that difficulty, and also the possibility of losing my budget for this podcast because I couldn't prove the value, I was like, there's no way that I'm the only one. And so the idea for Casted was born to say, Hey, this is so much more than a need for B2B podcast solution. This is truly the future of B2B marketing is using shows like this to create pillars and to be used across lots of other channels, and to prove the value. I believe so much in this as the future of B2B marketing. It was like, there's a there, and if not me, then who? And once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it. So that was four years ago, and here we are.

Ryan Brock: Wow. Yeah. Well, dear listeners, I hope that by this point, you are familiar with the show's philosophy on marketing and SEO and why I got into doing this show and what we're doing today with pillar based marketing, because it's all about like, Ooh, I'm asking people to spend money on content and it takes a long time to do anything. And we don't know which pieces are going to do something and we can't really justify it. And people run out of patience really fast and we lose that money. So hopefully, people are hearing some of that in what you're saying because we're so alike in that perspective, Lindsay. It's just look at any aspect of business and there's so much data and there's so much just easy technology that makes our lives easier. If you're in sales, you've got tech up the wazoo to quantify and break down every aspect of what you're doing. But if you're a writer or you're a podcast host, it's like, hope you've got good creative sensibilities, because that's what this is all banking on, unless you have something good to bag it up. Yeah, that's so cool.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Well, and the tough part too is as a creative, content and brand is largely seen as the creative side of marketing, and it's very top of funnel. It's not only frustrating, it's detrimental, and it's actually harmful to one's career and potential finances and upward mobility because those in the roles that can prove their value, they're the ones who get the promotions. They're the ones who get the budget, they're the ones who get the things. And when you can't prove your value, as we're seeing and feeling right now, your budget gets cut, your job gets cut. You don't get the promotion, you don't get the CMO role. And that's not because you're not doing a good job, it's because you can't prove that what you're doing matters.

Ryan Brock: Yeah, it's interesting looking at it from inside of a tech company, it's like marketing, getting budget cut. You hear that that's going to be the thing that happens like, oh, we're going into a recession. Marketing's going to get their budget cut. And Drew, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this. Absolutely not. Not if you have a direct line between spend and lead generation, conversions, anything that you're doing. I think for the most part, businesses are logical, but they have to understand it.

Drew Detzler: Exactly. Marketing budgets get cut because they're not tying it back to revenue, or they're not tying it back to revenue properly. To Lindsay's point, I wholeheartedly agree.

Ryan Brock: Well, right. And what I see you doing all the time as a CMO is taking money out of one bucket and putting it in another because that bucket's not doing a good job right now, but this other bucket has been doing a good job right now and being able to make those decisions with some sense of, I'm informed and I'm actually looking at real data is critical, or you're just guessing and guesswork is what cost me my hair. And it sucks.

Drew Detzler: Don't blame it all on guesswork. Come on. 75% guesswork.

Ryan Brock: I don't know a single male in my family that had lost his hair when he was 26, so it can't be genetics.

Drew Detzler: Wow. Okay. Guesswork. It's guesswork. 100% guesswork. No, I completely agree. And that's why I'm excited about what Casted is doing. And that brings me to what I want to talk about today, and something that, Lindsay, I've heard you mention in the past and quite often is what you're calling this next phase of content marketing and what you refer to as amplified marketing.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Absolutely.

Drew Detzler: What is the philosophy behind amplified marketing?

Lindsay Tjepkema: Sure. Okay. So the whole basis of amplified marketing, really similar. Ryan and I geeked out originally about this, because there's so much alignment with pillar- based marketing. The whole philosophy is go get creative, have a conversation, prioritize human connection. Do the thing that your marketer's gut knows you should do, and hopefully that you're using data to know that you should do, make that, make a show, make a podcast, do that. Then amplify it. And what do I mean by that? Atomize it, wring it out, clip it up, pull it apart, repurpose, reuse, put into playlist. Use that thing, that nucleus across all different channels to expand your reach to be more efficient. You create this one resource that you can use in myriad ways, expand your reach, expand your impact, and then measure its impact on the business. And then keep going. Keep looping back, keep repurposing what you already have. Look at how it's performing to inform what you create more of. And it's more efficient, which is really important in times right now. And it's really effective because, as we know, repetition is really important and really helpful as you're reaching out to customers and as you're reaching the market because you're hitting on that same message over and over. And yeah, that's the basis of it.

Ryan Brock: SEOs pay attention. Because one of the things I still hear from people nowadays, because pillar- based marketing and amplified marketing, they cover different subjects to a certain extent. But same idea of we're looking at tell me what people actually search for. And I don't care about your search volume or your other metrics that you use to evaluate a keyword. I care about how often on different buying journeys does a question get asked? Does that mean I should write about that thing? And from there, you start seeing the real world of where you need to be if you want to be found. And a lot of times that means you got to say the same things in a lot of different ways and answer the same questions worded a little slightly differently. And I think to some marketers that feels cheap or lazy or spammy. I've heard people say that that's not writing for humans, it's writing for the robots or whatever. But I think it's a very human act. So to meet people where they are and speak their language, right?

Lindsay Tjepkema: Well, it's how you do it and it's why you do it. It can be really gross and very, I mean, you could use chat GPT to do that 100%. Should you? I don't think so. But a really cool way to do that, and this is where we can work so well together, which is so exciting, is to get informed and say, okay, this is the question that's getting asked. This is my opportunity. And then what if you had a conversation about it and you fuel that conversation? A very human conversation. And one really tough spot that marketers get put into a lot, especially content marketers, is that they have to pretend to be the expert on something. So if you sell semiconductors, you represent a brand that sells semiconductors, and you're the content marketer, it's really hard to write the content for that. Or if you're super, super technical business. But what if instead, I knew what people were asking about semiconductors, and I went to you, Ryan, because you are the expert of semiconductor land.

Ryan Brock: As we all know.

Lindsay Tjepkema: And then also to you, Drew, and you were my two interviewees, and I had conversations with both of you because I'm not the expert, but you two are. And then look at that. I have these two hours of rich content that I could direct our conversation to answer the question that I know my audience wants to know, and I can just ask you. And then myself and my team are fueled with just data- rich information from experts answering the questions they want that I can use in 100 different ways. That's being journalistic and making human connections, that's not spammy or robotic at all.

Ryan Brock: Love that so much. And for the record, drew doesn't know anything about semiconductors, and I wouldn't trust a word he says.

Drew Detzler: Oh, man, I was going to call you out. Ryan doesn't even know how to spell semiconductors. You beat me to the punch.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Wouldn't it have been a fun fact if one of you was like, actually, I am an expert in semiconductors?

Ryan Brock: Well, I mean, to an extent, I do feel like I'm a little bit out of touch with that stage in my life, but for a long, long time owning a content agency as a writer, I do feel like I developed that. And I know that our writers at DemandJump are insane repositories of all this industry information and stuff. And it's like, I think, not to disagree with something you said, Lindsay, because I agree with what you're saying 100%. But I think that there is room in marketing for people with a very specific set of skills that can go out there and can research like nobody else, and can translate technical information like nobody else, because the core of everything we're doing in SEO is still a written word, so much of it. But even while that's the case in practice, audio and video are given so much more priority by any search engine, any media platform, because we know that people consume it and they love it and they need it. And it's just easier in your life for so many reasons. I think I need both depending on this topic. But I know that if I were a writer, and if I were to come to the conclusion, which I have in the past, working with different customers or clients, if I come to the conclusion that actually no, I need to do video content for this company for whatever reason, because that's where that audience is, it's a lot harder for me to take research skills and the ability to write in a company's voice that succeeds for a blog, and translate that into video content for this business that's going to be found to the right places and have that conversational tone. So the ability to do that and pass the buck on authority is so cool. It's a really interesting concept.

Lindsay Tjepkema: I love it, for sure.

Drew Detzler: Yep, I love that. I love the idea of integrating all the different types of media that we're creating. I mean, on the SEO side of things, we know the search engines reward pieces that have rich content on them and have video and audio snippets, because, like Ryan said, that's what people want. That's what people gravitate towards. So I love the idea of a better way to integrate them through solutions like that, and through amplified marketing. So Lindsay, who's using amplified marketing in the way you think about it today? Do you have some examples and who else should be using it?

Lindsay Tjepkema: Yeah. I mean, we focus on mid- market to enterprise B2B, right? Where Casted's focus is. But my vision in who is amplified marketing for, it's for truly any marketer at any size business. And I have a dream that someday, regardless of whether Casted is a good fit for your business or not, amplified marketing will be a part of your strategy. I mean, not unlike inbound marketing and whether or not you're using HubSpot, inbound marketing is part of basically everybody's strategies these days. And the fact is that going back in time, like I said, I've been doing marketing for a very long time, and when I first got started, everything was about written content and blogging, which is great, but that was before we could stream video. That was before podcasts were a thing. And so to me, it's like, what if we started with the experts? What if we started with the intent data? What if we started with being more informed and less guesswork of what should we talk about and what's our channel strategy? What are we going to do for our blog? What are we going to do for our podcast? What are we going to do for videos? What are we going to do for social? And instead thought from a more integrated approach, from a centralized place of whose it for? Why are we doing it? Who are the experts that we can go to? What are the topics that our audience is most interested in? How do we do that first? And then it becomes so much easier to just wring it out and not do it over and over and over and over for every single channel. So to me, it's for every brand, it's for every marketer, specifically within the marketing team at this point in time. I mean, it's a content marketing function.

Ryan Brock: Sounds like you're saying that regardless of the medium, a marketing team in 2023 needs to be functioning like a production company or a publishing company like publisher of a magazine or a producer of a news entertainment show where you got to find the talent. You got to connect that talent to your people, and you got to process it and get it ready to put out in front of the right people and pay attention to how people respond to it, and then give them more what they want.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Yeah. And the more that marketers can be creative and conduits, they can think about connecting humans with each other and connecting humans with ideas and being the conduits through which that happens. I mean, that's fun. That's a really fun job. And then having the methodology and the tools to make it efficient and measurable, that makes it even better.

Drew Detzler: I love it. Part of it sounds journalistic. Is journalistic a word? I make up more words on this show.

Ryan Brock: Yes.

Drew Detzler: Okay. It's a word. It's a word.

Lindsay Tjepkema: It's a very journalistic word.

Drew Detzler: Okay. Yeah, I like that. It sounds very journalistic about going to, if you're in a marketing department and you're not the expert on the subject, going and connecting with-

Lindsay Tjepkema: Finding those who are.

Drew Detzler: ...the experts, and starting from the inside and working out, really becoming an expert on the topic.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Yeah. And I think when you think about journalists, sometimes they do an interview, right? Sometimes they do research. And either way, a journalist usually doesn't pretend to be the expert. They're not like, I am writing about this. It's not an opinion piece, it's not a column. It's not a thought leadership piece. It is, you're reporting, right? And I think that when a marketer has the respect and the space within their org and the tools needed to be able to be journalistic and be like, I'm the one who's going out and finding the information, finding the experts, I'm finding the data, I'm finding the resources that I need, and I'm providing it to my audience. Because I know that this is what's going to be valuable to them. That's the role that we get to play. And that's a fun role to be in. A lot less pressure to be everything to everyone.

Ryan Brock: Yes. Yeah, yeah. As a creative writer myself, I've always thought in terms of marketing through the lens of the writer's job. And it's just, at the end of the day, the point is, if you want to succeed in marketing, even if you're dealing with technical subjects or really, really heavy cerebral topics or whatever, the better you can connect two people and two ideas, or the better you can help spin a story in the right emotional context, the more successful you're going to be. And that remains as true as ever.

Lindsay Tjepkema: 100%

Ryan Brock: So what if I need help with doing that? I mean, what if I, as a marketer, maybe I have a limited amount of time, maybe my team has different kinds of skill sets. How do I build relationships with partners who can help me boost my content or get these stories packaged up, find my audience? What do you think the most critical jobs in amplified marketing are, and how do I find the right people to help me with those?

Lindsay Tjepkema: Well, I mean, obviously you should work with Casted and with DemandJump. I mean, once you check those two boxes.

Ryan Brock: No shame, no shame.

Lindsay Tjepkema: But truly, okay, so getting within your team. So let's say you are a team of one, right? I've been there. And you don't have people that you can work with. You don't have that luxury. You can still, I've done this. You go and you ask, turn yourself into a reporter. Go and say, okay, I'm going to talk to the people within my company. I'm going to talk to the CEO, I'm going to talk to the product leaders. I'm going to talk to the salespeople. I'm going to talk to the customer success people, interview them. I did that. And that will give you a ton of source information. And then you can go out and do some research and look at what people are writing about and what people are interested in and start there. I think that's ground zero of if you have nothing, do that. Interview your internal people and do some research about the external intent and start to push those together. If you do have the luxury of some resources, I think that still is true. Ask a lot of questions. Get really curious about the thought leadership that exists within your company, the resources that you do have, the customers that you have access to, to have proof points, the partners that you have access to say, how do we work together to solve needs? What questions are they getting asked? What questions are we getting asked? And how can we expand the networks that we have, our collective networks, by working together. And then looking at partners that can help you answer those questions about what are people searching for? What problems can I solve for my audience? How can I better understand my audience? And who are the experts that can help answer those questions? Because it doesn't have to be you. So look within your team. I think that that's, even if you're a marketing team of one, look at other people in other departments who have information and insights and thought leadership and knowledge and get asked questions all the time. Sales gets asked questions all the time. CX gets asked questions all the time, product support gets asked questions all the time. How can you answer those questions and how can you get the answer to that question? And then use that answer in a ton of different ways, in a ton of different channels.

Ryan Brock: That's great advice.

Drew Detzler: I love it. I love it. Something you said there around answering the questions that your audience is asking, answering the questions that people are asking is something that we talk a lot about in and around SEO, is meeting the buyer where they are in their journey and just answering the question that they're asking at that time. So that resonates-

Lindsay Tjepkema: Just so simple, but it's so easy to overlook.

Drew Detzler: Exactly, it is. And a lot of marketers do. A lot of marketers, Ryan says it all the time, and a lot of marketers jump straight to the sales pitch. They immediately go to, here's why you should use us, rather than just answering the questions that people are asking and letting them get there and being genuinely helpful.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Yeah.

Ryan Brock: Okay. So here's the thing on that, we've said it a lot, that a lot of marketers go straight to the sell, and that to me, it almost sounds like a truism or a platitude or something. It's just something that we say, and is that real? Or a lot of marketers still thinking on that level. And I think what's important for us to acknowledge is that it's not even necessarily a conscious thing marketers are doing. So much of the data marketers have had available to them, especially in content marketing for the last decade, have been grasping at straws, trying to prove that this is the right way to go, even though you still aren't going to know for sure if a piece of content's going to connect with your audience until months later, and it's a lot of wasted time and effort. And so of course, you're going to be incented as a marketer to focus on the topics with the most search volume or the ones that you see your competitors talking about, even if you don't have anything original to say. And a lot of times that's going to lead you down the path of, well, why are we spending time answering basic questions that people have about a topic when there might be a lot of people asking those questions, and very small number of those people might want to buy something from me, why shouldn't I focus on the things that stand out? And I think there's a lot of marketers who have been in that so long, it's hard to get away from it, especially if they have a boss who cares about marketing and potentially could be weighing sales pipeline needs or whatever else is going on in the company in their advice and their pressure that they're putting on. And so it's not that I think marketers aren't trying to do this stuff. It's just really hard to cut through the noise and say, oh, I can create value for my business by also just putting good things into the world for people. And that's hard to find sometimes.

Lindsay Tjepkema: It is. And to a certain extent, you need a leader that gets it, which, cool, how am I going to get that? I don't have that. But you need someone who understands it. Not everything that everything that matters can be measured and not everything that can be measured matters. There's that whole thing. Or right away, content brand is a marathon, not a sprint. Sometimes you create something and three years later it blows up. That is the content and brand game, and we know that, but not everybody does. And that's why budgets get cut. And that's why initiatives that are really, really have a lot of promise get cut or don't get funded in the first place. And that stinks. But I think is there any foolproof, solid way to solve for that? I don't think so. But one thing that we're trying to do at Casted is provide more and more support. Okay, who's listening? Even if I can't say the podcast is driving 10 million in revenue today, I know that these accounts are listening and therefore, it's actionable by sales. It's every little bit that matters, every little piece of information that can be helpful. And I know that, DemandJump, same thing. It's like, how can you provide support to the content marketer that is working so hard to be creative and to be that connective tissue between their brand and their audience and chip away at it? But it is, it's really, really hard, especially when you see your counterparts that have a much more direct line to revenue, have their projects and their tech stacks get funded when your creativity that is working, doesn't. It's really hard.

Ryan Brock: But this is something that, Toph, one of our original co- hosts on this show, and my co- author for the book, Pillar Based Marketing. We address right off the gate that that's why we need the methodologies, like pillar- based marketing and amplified marketing in content, specifically because marketers need a seat at the table. And if you want to rise to the top, if you want to really influence the direction your business is going, you need to be visible. And even if you can't, like you said, even if you can't prove my podcast is driving 10 million of revenue or whatever, every time you can go to your BDRs and say, Hey, this company's listening. Maybe you should look into them. You're creating visibility in another companies. Or you can go to your customer success team and say, this account's really been active. That means they're engaged. Let's do something with that. But it starts having an effect everywhere in the business when you can understand the ways people engage with your content, and that's what leads to just growth for marketers as individuals, but also for growth as marketing in its role within any organization. I think that's something we should all be striving for.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Absolutely. And I am seeing more support for creative, more support for content, more support for brand. And I think perhaps coming out of the pandemic, it just became so obvious, the need for human connection and how important brand is with a business, and that when you can't literally be in front of your audience, the importance of that human connection really matters to revenue. And you know where that human connection comes from? Brand and content and all the blog posts and all the videos and all of those feel good touchpoints and all of those opportunities to be seen as and experienced as a trusted advisor by your audience, that matters. And I think that light switch actually turn the light on for a lot of people that were skeptical about it and saw everything that we're talking about as soft and really top of funnel. And that's going to happen anyway. And how do you measure it? Well, it's important, because you know what happens when it goes away? Really bad things.

Ryan Brock: Exactly. The connective tissue is gone. Yeah.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Yeah.

Drew Detzler: Exactly.

Lindsay Tjepkema: And so I think we're seeing, I'm seeing, I mean, just to my experience, I'm seeing more openness by leadership to say, okay, we know that this needs to happen. Now, there is the counterbalance of budget not supporting it always, but there is more support for more creative endeavors to what we're like, what we're talking about, which is really, really great. And there's more and more software and more companies and more services to help marketers make it happen. The conversation is shifting, and human connection is more respected now than I think it was in the past.

Ryan Brock: More technology leads to more humanity and more creativity, who would've thunk it?

Drew Detzler: Completely agree. I love it. Well, this was a great conversation, Lindsay. We really appreciate you joining us and talking about amplified marketing, something that we're definitely going to be talking a lot with our team about as a mindset, and it was a great conversation. Before we go, though, we have what we call the lightning round, and we're just going to ask you a couple of quick questions and that you can rattle off answers to as they come to mind.

Lindsay Tjepkema: I'm ready.

Drew Detzler: All right. Number one, what was the last thing that you searched?

Lindsay Tjepkema: Honestly?

Drew Detzler: Honestly, I'll leave that up to you.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Pillar based marketing pre- order.

Ryan Brock: Oh, man. Oh, man.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Right before the show. Right before show I saw that you had posted about it on LinkedIn and I lost it, and I opened it up right before the show.

Ryan Brock: Did that work? Did you find it?

Lindsay Tjepkema: I did. I'm looking at it right now.

Drew Detzler: Amazing.

Ryan Brock: All right.

Drew Detzler: Ryan, you are a superstar. I'm not going to say rockstar, because there was just a Super Bowl commercial that was talking about marketers calling each other rock stars too much. So I won't say rockstar.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Okay. We'll take whatever.

Drew Detzler: All right, Lindsay, any marketing myths that you've busted during your career journey?

Lindsay Tjepkema: I literally what we were just talking about, that the soft stuff doesn't matter, that the creative stuff is fluff. That early in my marketing journey, I thought that the creative brand stuff that I really, really loved was extra and that I had to learn how to do the stuff that I thought that was more measurable. They're both important. One is not more important than the other, but my heart is in the brand and content, and it absolutely matters. It absolutely can be measurable, and it's really, really important. Myth busted.

Ryan Brock: Boom.

Drew Detzler: I loved it.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Boom.

Ryan Brock: Broken.

Drew Detzler: I love it. And finally, your best prediction for SEO trends in 2023 and beyond.

Lindsay Tjepkema: I'm going to keep this, I'm pulling at this thread. I think that, 2023, I think that marketers this year and beyond are going to say, all right, I know that human connection matters from pandemic times, now more than ever. Also, I know that my budget is under more scrutiny now more than ever. How can I be creative and also prove value to the business? And there are ways to do it, and that's true for all of marketing. And I think it's absolutely true for SEO. The most human brand ultimately wins, even with SEO, you're ultimately creating for humans.

Ryan Brock: You know what you just triggered, in my mind, Lindsay, I don't know how but I've been engaged in this whole AI generative content, and AI search stuff. Because it's my world that I live in. I'm moderating a panel on AI and marketing at Midwest Digital Marketing Conference in a few months, and I just now realized how much of a slap in the face it is for Google to call their AI tool, Bard, to take Shakespeare away from us writers is such a slap in the face. But I agree with you 100%. There's going to be, I think to add to what you're saying, I think, there's going to be a division. Then we're going to start learning what kind of questions we'll trust something like Bard with and which ones we need a human being. And there's still a lot of questions we're going to need a human being for.

Lindsay Tjepkema: It's true. And don't forget, at the end of the day, SEO is good. Chat GPT is good. All of this stuff is good if you use it in the right way and you use it to fuel your creative human mind.

Ryan Brock: Couldn't have put it better myself if I had a thousand tries.

Lindsay Tjepkema: You totally could have, which is why I wrote a book about it, so.

Drew Detzler: No, no

Ryan Brock: Very fair.

Drew Detzler: All right. Well, Lindsay, thanks again for being an awesome guest. This was a great conversation. Before we let you go, is there anything you'd like to tell us about Casted and what's next?

Lindsay Tjepkema: I mean, you should probably come get to know us if you don't already. We're at casted. us and come chat with me. I'm very active on the LinkedIn.

Ryan Brock: And we're very, Drew and I are happy customers of Casted and-

Lindsay Tjepkema: And likewise.

Ryan Brock: ...it's already, yeah, it's driving some really cool stuff. Every day at work, when we go to the office, we're hearing people on our team talking about how cool it is that they can use it and what it's doing, and really does supercharge that creative spirit like we're talking about here.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Well, thank you. Same thing.

Drew Detzler: Absolutely does.

Lindsay Tjepkema: We love DemandJump, too.

Drew Detzler: Well, thanks again, Lindsay, and we'll do it again.

Lindsay Tjepkema: Sounds good.

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