Maximizing Multichannel Marketing Without Burning Out

Speaker 1: Welcome to Page One Or Bust, your ultimate guide to getting on page one of search engines. This interview features Ben Goodey, an SEO specialist, podcast host, and the founder of... Well, we can't exactly say the name on air. So fill in the blanks with your imagination. How the F*ck is a podcast, website, and premium community Ben has built up over the years featuring remarkable SEO case studies. In this episode, he takes a break from hosting to talk about avoiding burnout and your multichannel marketing strategy, especially if you're a CMO running a small team, but wanting big results. But before we get into it, here's a brief word from our sponsor. Page One Or Bust is brought to you by DemandJump. Get insights, drive outcomes with DemandJump. Get started creating content that ranks for free at demandjump. com today. And now here are your co- hosts, Drew Detzler and Ryan Brock.

Drew Detzler: Welcome to Page One or Bust. I'm your co-host Drew Detzler. As always, I'm joined by my co- host Ryan Brock. Ryan, how we doing?

Ryan Brock: Yo. Oh, living the dream. I had a really bad fish lunch, and I'm just full of energy for this conversation.

Drew Detzler: Yeah, that was a wild choice. I wish you would have consulted me before you went with that prior to this, but here we are.

Ryan Brock: Ready to go.

Drew Detzler: Well, I'm excited for today's conversation. Joining us today is Ben Goodey, the founder behind How the F* ck. Ben, welcome to the show.

Ben Goodey: Hi, thank you. Thanks so much for having me on. Yeah, really excited to be here.

Ryan Brock: Ben, are you sick and tired of having to talk about the name of your production, or is it part of the joy for you?

Ben Goodey: I think it's part of the joy for me. I really appreciate that every other SEO podcast out there is called SEO podcast and mine is totally different to all of those. When you look at the roundup of SEO podcasts, it's like, SEO podcast, SEO podcast, and then How the F* ck. Yeah, I kind of like it.

Ryan Brock: That's amazing. Well, obviously we were thinking similarly, Page One or Bust. We thought let's do something a little bit different, go for some Americana road trip vibes. And of course Google went and ruined page one for us all. So now it doesn't make any sense, but that's only if you're in marketing, I think.

Drew Detzler: Awesome. Well, Ben, before we dive in, why don't you tell the listeners a little bit about How the F*ck and how you landed on that name?

Ben Goodey: Cool. How the F*ck is kind of evolved a little bit since I started it. It started out originally as a general marketing podcast, which is how the name actually originated. I was learning marketing and looking for resources all over the internet, and I just kept coming across people basically spouting their wisdom all over LinkedIn, all this kind of stuff. And I really felt like the content was kind of lacking the dots, like how to connect the actual dots between what they were saying and all this advice they were doing. At that time I was trying to build a marketing strategy for a company. So I was like, " I can't just piece together bits from your LinkedIn. I want to know exactly how you did it, and then I'm sure there's a lot of other people who want to know that too." I started the podcast, started interviewing people, started trying to actually find exactly how they did it and get them to share their growth stories and their big wins and the details behind them importantly. And then I kind of took a little bit of time off after the first 30 something episodes and then refocused it all on SEO, and it became like an SEO case studies podcast. Now it's morphed into a community that is all about kind of SEO case studies, tearing down other people's strategies, sharing their kind of best practices, examples, experiments, that kind of thing. It's a podcast, but it's a blog, and it's got a premium community. It's a bit of a multichannel organic thing that's going on. I also own seocasestudy. com now, which I'm building up the SEO of slowly.

Drew Detzler: I love that. Don't get Ryan started on people on LinkedIn spewing their nonsense because that will get him worked up.

Ryan Brock: My tagline for those listeners who don't know is bald and okay with it. I work as hard as I can to make a farce of myself on that platform despite I think having some fairly good ideas about marketing and SEO.

Ben Goodey: Well, I have to say that I probably feed a lot of that myself. I post every day on LinkedIn. It's a really big growth channel for the podcast and community.

Drew Detzler: Based off of your title of your podcast, you're cutting through the bullshit that is out there for the most part.

Ben Goodey: I'm trying to. I think a lot of people have maybe the mindset of if they share half of the strategy then the other half they'll have to do it. Someone will have to hire them to do it themselves, but I've always been much more like I want to share everything.

Ryan Brock: This is amazing. Taking me back here, Ben, because when I got started, I graduated college as a writer, but I got my start as a writer and I was like, " I want to write." Started working on a publishing startup and started learning about a little bit about marketing, writing, copywriting because people were offering me work. The way that I went about learning marketing to the point where I started my own agency three months into my career in marketing, it was the stupidest thing anyone could have done, but we made it and we survived and we sold it and I'm here now, but the way that I learned was I would target people who knew how to do things in marketing that I didn't. I'd be like, " I'm going to write an article about you for my blog," and interview them and write a really nice article. It's the same idea except I had to actually write it.

Ben Goodey: What I was going to add is the podcast does one bit, but it by far doesn't get the most attention or impressions or the traffic of the whole thing. Definitely comes from the LinkedIn writeups and the carousel versions of the podcast and the tear downs and the case studies that are written afterwards. So sadly, it's not as simple as doing the recording and moving on, but I really love how much a podcast can be the source of a bunch of other content so easily.

Drew Detzler: Ben, why don't you talk a little bit about your SEO journey, how you decided to shift that podcast focus from general marketing to a little bit more of an SEO focus?

Ben Goodey: Yeah, I mean definitely I chose to do SEO because it's the thing that followed me throughout my career. It's the thing that I saw working so well and the thing I really got. I really think SEO is anyone can do it. But my first kind of experience with SEO actually, I was 18, and I worked, did an internship in Barcelona. I think my first ever thing that I did was the site had been doing a load of black hat SEO, like putting links on link farms across the internet, and they had millions of links from places that suddenly the next day you didn't want to have links on.

Ryan Brock: Gross panda.

Ben Goodey: I just spent a long time emailing people kind of saying, " Can you remove our link?" I think the business went from something like 3, 000 pounds revenue a day to zero overnight. So obviously they panicked, and I kind of came in at that exact moment to learn SEO. So that was my first experience with it.

Drew Detzler: Straight into the fire.

Ben Goodey: Yeah.

Ryan Brock: Yeah. I came up in the same time around SEO. I've talked about this way too much on the show, but one of my first customers back in the day was a large SEO shop that was doing the same sort of stuff. Imagine that situation, but it spread across like 20 businesses who all of a sudden are getting litigious about where's our rankings and where's our traffic. It was something that I think anyone who's lived through it doesn't want to go back through it again. That's for sure.

Ben Goodey: Yeah, it's definitely moved on a long way from there.

Drew Detzler: Well, that brings us to today's big topic, which is around multichannel marketing. You mentioned it a little bit earlier on with repurposing podcasts into other channels, but let's talk a little bit about multichannel marketing strategies that avoid burnout. You already did just a little bit, but go a little bit deeper into your experience with multichannel marketing and how you've managed to avoid that burnout.

Ben Goodey: I've worked at a few different tech startups. One of them is the first and only marketer, kind of solo marketer from the day one kind of thing doing all of marketing. And obviously it's so tempting to do everything. We tried pay, did a partnership model. We also did a lot of SEO. We heavily doing LinkedIn as well, promoting through there. Yeah, it was totally exhausting. The next company I worked at, we did all that stuff, but we did way more PPC. We did in- person events as well. We did a regular weekly newsletter. Both of these companies, we had very small teams. We had a ton of content going out and probably too much. We didn't need that much. We also had that then those multiple channels on the go. I think honestly I did watch people burning out because of that. It's a really hard thing to manage. If you have a small team and you're focusing on too many channels, that's more of a signal that you're lacking focus than it is a signal of, I don't know, high production and output because I don't think you can do that many channels well, especially if you've got one or two people. But that being said, there are lots of ways to kind of optimize it and we definitely found ways to streamline that process to experiment while also keeping a focus. I think as an early stage company or a later stage SaaS company with a small marketing team, you have to get that kind of focus, learn to work out what marketing channels it is that are working and then layer it on and double down on those rather than keeping shifting. Everyone wants to be entrepreneur. I think that's what makes marketing great, but having new ideas needs to be done within guidelines.

Ryan Brock: I got a question for you, and this is going to sound glib, Ben. What if you hate the channels where your audiences are? Like me with LinkedIn, for example, have to do it, know it's where my audience is, and I actually like the people that I interact with on LinkedIn. Generally speaking, I've got better things to do than to write up LinkedIn posts or to comment on someone else's LinkedIn posts. I truly can't be bothered to do it and I hate it. I'm already burnt out and I haven't even started is another way of saying it. Do you have any advice for that? Do you have a secret that I can use in my life?

Ben Goodey: That's a tough one. I've found myself in this situation where I've built a brand around me and the growth around me posting on LinkedIn every day. I also get this so many days where I just don't want to be having this thought in the back of my head, like how many likes did that post get, who's messaged me? I need to be on there every day commenting and networking, otherwise the business doesn't grow. So I'm on your kind of page with that. All I can say is this is where having multiple channels is useful. You can spend much less time growing your audience on LinkedIn if you also have other channels. You can take regular breaks from it and you can have stronger boundaries with those channels. With LinkedIn, spend less time on it. Also, say for example, if you had a podcast and tried to build your marketing engine around a podcast, it's foundational thing like we talked about as something you then atomize. You can focus all your energy on the podcast, but you can have someone else, maybe like you're doing already, cutting it up into clips, doing the promotion, even running your whole social account if you want. I definitely know the biggest LinkedIn creators out there that I talk to, they have assistance answering the comments. They have people answering all their DMs, all the chat. They have people posting for them every day. So there's ways around it basically. You don't have to be on there to use it as a promo.

Drew Detzler: That's totally fair. That's totally fair,

Ryan Brock: That's fair, but I hate the answer because I wish there was a better secret. I just wish there was like a, " Yeah, Ryan, don't worry about it. I got you. You just do this thing and you're going to love LinkedIn all of a sudden." But alas, it's not how the modern man's mind works.

Ben Goodey: The one thing I would challenge is if you are a business owner, if you like content writing and writing a book and producing a podcast and that's your thing, then that is what you could focus on. But if you have a team that's doing sales or marketing, then they should focus on the promotion part of it ultimately. You should do what you are good at. But if you're a founder and your priority is sales and you work out that LinkedIn is your huge growth strategy, then I know founders who run the whole business, like a huge business, that spend four hours a day on LinkedIn because they know that's where they make the money. So it's kind of like instead of having a head of sales dedicate their time to cold calling, that's a simplification, it's like they spend it all on LinkedIn. It's similar prioritization problem, if that makes sense.

Drew Detzler: It does.

Ryan Brock: I always used to always say the cobbler's son has no shoes. I've talked to a lot of people that feel the same way. Even when I was running a content agency... Now I'm helping to lead a marketing SaaS company and there's a whole lot of other work to do that's not just that stuff. But when that was the only job that me and my team were doing, we still didn't do it for ourselves. I think it's admirable to hear you put it in a way that's like, it's not just vanity. That perspective is helpful to me and I'd imagine to our users. That's what I'm talking about, B2B SaaS. I call our listeners users. Major fail, but I think it's helpful for them to hear that because it's easy to write off personal brand as some level of vanity, but to your point, for you and what you're doing, it's 100% necessary. People, they need to see that. That's how you get good. That's how you test the waters. That's how you see what works and what doesn't work and how you help others accomplish the same thing. So it's all a matter of perspective.

Drew Detzler: Ben, something you said there around prioritization and what you've talked about with smaller teams struck home, and I wanted to ask you a question about that. We're a smaller team. We work with a ton of smaller teams, 1, 3, 5, 6 marketers. Every one of us wants to project the maturity of an enterprise level marketing team. Whether we're one marketer or a five person marketing team, we want the world to think that we're a marketing team of 30, so we want to do email, SEO, social, event. We want to do it all. But that leads to burnout and it leads to being the jack of all trades and king of none, that old chestnut.

Ryan Brock: It's master of none, drew. It's master of none.

Drew Detzler: We'll bleep it out. We'll bleep it out.

Ryan Brock: Ridiculous.

Drew Detzler: Ben, how do you prioritize the channels that you use in your multichannel marketing? How do you prioritize those?

Ben Goodey: The way I would prioritize at a company where you don't know what's coming next, you have no marketing engine, let's say, is I would start with all that audience research stuff. Find out where exactly they are and what they're interested in, what kind of stuff that they have and fit that industry and your inaudible. If you are an enterprise B2B SaaS sale, make sure you're not doing the same thing as a product led company or a services company. Just try to fit your strategy to what you do and don't go down all the rabbit holes that I've gone down doing the wrong strategies. But you do have to test. I think the best thing that I ever did at one of the other companies was just trying a little bit of everything and seeing what worked. But once you do get those early signals, I do think it's better to focus on the positive signals and keep layering things on those rather than having new totally separate ideas try to build.

Ryan Brock: What's a positive signal that matters? I've used the word vanity way too many times for one podcast, but vanity metrics, it's easy on LinkedIn, any channel really these instant gratification signals that hey, this felt good or this looked nice or it's going to sound good to my boss who isn't a marketer. And then there's this is contributing to the growth of my business and the goals that we have for it. How do you tell the difference?

Ben Goodey: Yeah. It's a really difficult one, especially if you have a long sales cycle and you can't immediately see which is giving you revenue. I think Chris Walker of Refine Labs, he's on my LinkedIn all day every day, has a really good model for this. I think it's called Revenue R& D. The idea I think is pretty sound for building a process and layering things on. What are those very first signals? Sometimes they are vanity at the beginning. They're more impressions, they're more of the right type of person liking your content and engaging with it. Obviously the ideal thing is someone reaches out to you and you see someone book a demo with you for your product. I think those are early signals. It's not just impressions. It's like are the impressions coming from the right people, not just likes and comments, are they coming from the right people? Those are things that you can accelerate happening, but you need to test if your content is working by seeing those really early vanity signals. And then once you've got those, how can you get more of them? Do they eventually become what you really want, which is a customer?

Ryan Brock: Oh, I want to take a curve. I want to take a wild curve before we get into our quick hits at the end, our lightning round. If you've been learning from people who have been doing SEO case studies for a while now, what's the most just crazy, what's the most insane, the craziest I've never thought about SEO that way or I've never seen someone do it that way story that you've encountered?

Ben Goodey: Every case study that I do is crazy for a start. They're always these high growth stories, like how monday. com made 1, 000 articles in a year or how Hotjar added this much percent traffic to their business this year. But one that really stands out to me is Typeform. I don't know if you've come across them. They're kind of like SurveyMonkey. And actually they follow a very similar strategy to SurveyMonkey. Both of them are product led companies, and the way type Typeform works is you can sign up for free and start using their survey maker straightaway. You can embed it in your website and everything. Think per year, they ended up adding like 3 million a year of annual recurring revenue all through SEO and it was all SEO led growth. Essentially what they do is I think everyone in SEO knows that bottom of funnel keywords are the gold dust really. They're usually kind of low volume, but really high converting. If it was survey maker, there's like 100,000 people a month searching for survey maker, and SurveyMonkey and Typeform are battling out for who gets to be the top for that keyword.

Ryan Brock: Doesn't matter. I'm with you. We prioritize the really niche stuff where we know who we're talking to you all the time, and it makes so much of a difference.

Ben Goodey: Exactly. That's the stuff that you want. But most companies, at least the ones that I've worked at or with, have an exhaustive list of bottom of funnel keywords. They run out basically. But companies like Typeform basically have an everlasting infinite amount of bottom of funnel keywords as it turns out. And those are template keywords. So questionnaire, template, quiz, make a template, any kind of possible template you could ever want, you can use their product to create it because it's a survey making tool that has a ton, a ton of different use cases and value points. Basically they ended up making their whole strategy around just adding five to six or seven kind of templates a month that were really well suited to a keyword and they're adding it to their template library, which has now like 1, 000 templates. As soon as you type in quiz maker template, it takes you to their survey maker and you sign up for free and then that you become a paying customer or a free customer and then they convert you. I think a magic of that strategy is that it's never- ending. And I think good product led SEO is never- ending like that. I just found that amazing.

Ryan Brock: Yeah, it's really cool. And it's so aligned with our methodology that we call pillar- based marketing. Ben, I'm going to harass you on getting myself on your show to tell our case studies because it's net different from anything you've ever heard. I guarantee it. I guarantee it. But the idea that you're not looking after what the industry has said for so long is where you should be targeting for SEO purposes, but instead you're imagining what are the infinite customer journeys somebody could take to learn about something and how do you increase the intersections between your brand and those moments when somebody needs to ask a question and then by doing so, generate the kind of authority that Google is happy to reward and say, " You know what you're talking about." You said it earlier. The world's changed since back in the link farming days, and thank goodness it has because now we can do our jobs by actually providing value to somebody. That's so cool to me. I just love talking about that.

Ben Goodey: I love that. Yeah. I think the best kind of SEO case study, sorry, the best SEO strategies are focused on maybe creating a resource, something that is of value as a whole about a topic. I get a lot of niche SEO case studies, so like retrododo. com for example, it's retro gaming product reviews. He makes$ 50, 000 a month from creating product reviews for retro gaming products. Really cool company. It's just adverts, affiliate products, but he owns the niche of retro gaming products. It's a pretty narrow niche, but I love the idea that let's say you were Atari, that would've been your content strategy. You just add the niche blog onto your atari. com/ blog and you create this mega resource for products about retro gaming. I like that kind of topical authority clustering of value kind of concept.

Ryan Brock: I just did a webinar with Content Marketing Institute, I talked about this on our last episode too, that I called domain authority is dead because it is, and I will stand by that statement. But topical authority is where it's at for sure. And it's so cool. What I thought you were going to say, which is I agree with what you said about this is what an Atari should do, what I think is cool is that anybody can do it. Literally, if you are an authority on something, it's not like this concept of SEO being a black box with made up rules and boxes you have to check to say, yes, I've done these things to win. Most of that doesn't matter. 90% of it doesn't matter. What matters is are you the person that we should trust to give an answer to somebody when they're asking a question about a niche topic? There's a lot of ways to demonstrate that, but the best one is to just show what and engage people.

Drew Detzler: That was a good wrap up there at the end. All right, Ben, before we let you go, we're going to have a little bit of fun with what we call our lightning round where I'll ask you a couple quick questions. Sound good?

Ben Goodey: Yep.

Drew Detzler: All right, let's do it. Ben, what was the last thing that you searched?

Ben Goodey: Oh, the last thing that I searched.

Ryan Brock: Be honest.

Drew Detzler: I was going to say you can lie to us if you want.

Ben Goodey: inaudible. Do you know what? I know the last thing I searched. It was SEO case study template, and that's because I wanted to see if my article had ranked there yet.

Ryan Brock: Oh, cool. What an SEO response.

Drew Detzler: Yeah. Was it ranking?

Ben Goodey: I only released it on Wednesday and I sent it in the newsletter and it's number seven.

Ryan Brock: Boom.

Ben Goodey: It wasn't the most competitive keyword, I admit, but it's really close to my brand.

Drew Detzler: Exactly. Doesn't matter about how competitive. That is the exact conversation we were just having. You are the topical authority on SEO case studies, and that's where you want to be.

Ben Goodey: One day I want to be that.

Drew Detzler: Love it. Okay, next question. Ben, are there any marketing myths that you've busted over your career journey?

Ben Goodey: One thing that I think is quite commonly said, and I don't know if you guys agree or not with this, but is that everything needs to be on a very regular schedule.

Ryan Brock: No.

Ben Goodey: Say Monday at 9: 00 AM if it doesn't go out, then everyone's going to be unhappy with you. I really don't think, and the evidence of my life suggests is no one cares if you just switch off all your marketing for a day. Probably everyone's actually going to be happy. I don't think exact schedules matter that much, and I think people should probably focus on value in the content a little bit more than that.

Ryan Brock: Couldn't agree more.

Ben Goodey: If you're just shipping it just because it needs to go out every day, then I think you're wasting your time to some extent.

Drew Detzler: Yeah. What's the inaudible? Don't confuse action with progress. Just sending emails doesn't mean that you're doing something. It just means that you're sending emails.

Ryan Brock: That's beautiful. That's musical, literary. Yeah, I mean, we're focused on organic SEO content. That's what our software enables. That's what we do on a daily basis, but we don't have a calendar for our blog. We try to talk people out of this all the time, the idea that you should publish on your blog once a week. We don't do that at all. Nobody cares. Nobody's coming to your blog to see what the last thing you posted is. It's all about the value you're bringing. So that's nice to hear. And you've made up for your LinkedIn thing by making me feel good about myself.

Ben Goodey: Oh, thank God for that. I think that's such a good myth, and I get this all the time, I try to tell people all the time, no one is going to your blog to read it. Unless you are animals or someone with incredible content, I don't think people are looking for an SEO led blog. Most of the time people aren't coming to your homepage and going to your blog purposefully. I've seen the clicks are pretty low or the views are pretty low. Most of the time they go to the content.

Drew Detzler: That's right. They're finding you by answering the questions. They're not going to your website and then seeking out your blog and seeing what you've published. All right, so last question Ben, before we let you go, what is your best prediction for SEO trends this year and beyond?

Ben Goodey: The thing that is most present in my mind right now is obviously AI. I think it's actually one of those things that we should probably worry about more than we are as an SEO community, besides the point that now the access to creating a pretty average article is instant for anyone now. So your content, I believe, needs to be much more differentiated than it ever was and more expertise led and all these things. But also my worry is, if Bing really do challenge Google, Google are responding by actually implementing an AI search result, as in they'll try to offer their best answer before they see us, before they see our content. For me, this is what this is making me think, and I haven't fully thought this through and obviously I can't predict the future, don't take my word for it, I just think we need to move away from stuff that has a lot of featured snippets, really easy to answer stuff like lists, animals beginning with A, easy definitions of this, what is this, because I think-

Ryan Brock: Agreed 100%.

Ben Goodey: ...it won't be long, it won't be long before that is just written by AI because they don't need you to do it. I think adjust accordingly.

Drew Detzler: We completely agreed in that. Stop writing the stuff that can be taken over by that technology and write the stuff that's really helpful and write the stuff that humans really need in- depth answers to. Well, thank you Ben for being an awesome guest today. Before we let you go though, why don't you tell us what's next for How the F*ck and also tell users where they can get involved.

Ryan Brock: It's listeners, Drew. I just went over this.

Drew Detzler: Oh my god.

Ben Goodey: Yeah, they're my valued listeners. What's next? Keeping doing more of what I'm doing because I think there's a lot of people's stories out there that are really great that haven't been told yet. And building up the premium community, it's where the best stuff is. I mean, obviously most of it's free, but that's where the real analysis of SEO and what's working for people, what isn't working for people happens. I think it's a really great place. If you are a team of content people or you have one SEO person who isn't very well- supported, get them a subscription because then they come into a community with tons of resources available to them. For me, I just want to make that community as good as it possibly can be and keep improving it. Go to thefxck. com, but the U is an X. Or go to seocasestudy. com. You'll find they're so interlinked. They're kind of a mess at the moment, but go visit anything. Actually on seocasestudy. com, there's free ones as well, as in there's free non- interview ones. I've done a tear down of investopedia. com and how they've done it and a couple of other niche blogs and how they've done it. Just go have a look around. Some of it's paid, but a lot of it's free. And you can follow me on LinkedIn because I post there every day.

Ryan Brock: We'll drop all the links in the show notes, so you won't have to remember which letters are actually which other letters. So just scroll on down and click.

Drew Detzler: Well, thanks again, Ben.

Ben Goodey: Thank you guys so much. Yeah, I love what you're doing.

Ryan Brock: Drew, what is your biggest takeaway for our users when it comes to what we learned from Ben today? Really, no comment on the fact that I just said users? You're just going to let that roll?

Drew Detzler: Oh my God. I told you my brain doesn't register it. My brain takes in listeners and replaces it with users. When I hear users, doesn't throw me off. Do you want to do it again?

Ryan Brock: No, I don't want to do it again. We're leaving this in here. This is the name of the game. We're SaaS people. This is how it is. But for our listeners, like you're a chief marketing officer at a SaaS company, what are you taking away from this conversation? What's making you sleep a little better tonight, Drew?

Drew Detzler: I'm the chief marketing officer at a SaaS company with a smaller marketing team as so many are it, I am taking away that misery loves company in that we're all drowning in multichannel, trying to do everything that we can. And you don't have to. You can prioritize and you can focus on one thing, get good at one thing, then tack another thing on with your small team. That's how we've done it. We started with two channels, mastered those, added a third, mastered that, added a fourth. That's the way to go about it as opposed to launching every channel all at once from scratch.

Ryan Brock: Organic content, it's the best investment. It's the only thing you can do to start off right. Especially if you're starting with a new company, just a new lease on life for what you're trying to accomplish, start investing in organic content that's going to become more valuable over time now and let that lead the decision making around how much you spend on other channels and what you do elsewhere because you're going to get so much out of it. Whether it's organic written content or like Ben is doing, podcasts, it's going to create so much opportunity for you to just expand your story and bring it other places.

Drew Detzler: Organic content is one of the only appreciating channels. The money you spend today will still be working for you years from now as opposed to some of the other channels. Anything else, Ryan?

Ryan Brock: No, that's it. I guess this time I get to say thank you for joining us on Page One Or Bust, and we will talk to you next time.

Speaker 1: Page One Or Bust is brought to you DemandJump. Know the exact content to create to increase first page rankings and drive outcomes with DemandJump. Get started for free today at demandjump. com.